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#1
Vainiac

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1) Even with slower speed lasers are still the hands down best weapon in the game. I can only imagine this will be exacerbated by the introduction of lvl 6 lasers.

 

And the rest of these points I've brought up a dozen times, but the laser changes don't make the remaining weapons more viable in a multiplayer game.

 

2) Plasma is pointless in its current iteration, lasers beat them in every situation.

3) Vulcan is still only good for picking off low health players, maybe this will improve with vulcan 2/3s?.

4) Frag cannon is useless against anyone who can fly backwards.

5) Smart blobs still have screwey homing and are useless for probing out player locations in a room because of it.

6) Energy usage is way too high/ships are too hard to hit/have too much health/weapons do too little damage. All of this combined makes the game frustrating to play. I don't think inspades and I finished a single dogfight without running out of energy tonight. This caused constant breaks in action and slowed the game down to a crawl while we recharged and flew around trying to find each other again. 

 

Also I don't know if this is a bug specific to me, but I don't hear a missile lock on beep. I see the flashing sign, I can hear all other sound effects in the game, but nothing for the lock on tone.

 


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#2
Wingman

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How many people were in your and Inspades match?

Was it just 1 v 1?

DD


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#3
Vainiac

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Yes just the two of us. We had open games up but noone else was around.
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#4
Whiteshark

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Plasma is pretty good right now, hardly slower than lasers but with more area. Though, I haven't tried the weapons in open areas vs. nice pilots, where I'd expect the gameplay becoming yet again unbearable. 

 

Wingman, imagine yourself having to choose always the lesser pilots to kill since killing pros is impossible, that is, when you yourself are a top tier pilot. 1v1 is an ok measure of how the gameplay will work out even with multiple players. It'll be pretty painful to play any mode when everyone just goes hunting for the weaker players.

 

Also, Vainiac, would love to play with you again some time to try out this stuff.


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Wouldn't it be easier to read if this was on Comic Sans?

 


#5
defcon_x

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Old suggestion, still good (?) ... use classic hitboxes in general, until players are down to hull

 

Or here's another one I haven't heard yet, though close to one of my earlier suggestions for adding missing immersion to the game. Something less disruptive to the design manual. Have "close calls" (such as lasers passing over Wasp) do some minor damage within a certain range and make sizzling noises. Like 0.25 hp damage for each laser-1 bolt and 1 hp damage for each laser-4 bolt that passes through a round "sizzle box".

 

sizzlebo.gif

 

Double the "effect" of plasma by having the heat of plasma blob passes be extremely more punishing than laser passes. Maybe even increase plasma blob size and shine factor. Therefore the hitboxes primarily become relevant with lasers and ammo weapons.

 

Have plasma and fusion treat shields differently, a bit more classically. For plasma and fusion, make the shields round but make finishing players off use the shaped hitboxes? That way reducing players' shields 1v1 plays a bit more classically. (I think some players will only ever accept classic mode.)

 

It would also make the game generally more interactive and less "guessy" as it presently is.

 

It would also really distinguish weapons into definable categories that make sense to switch between.

 

Lasers

- not super speedy

- lasers see very conservative ship hitboxes

- therefore lasers can shoot around players, though "close calls" cause directional sizzle which tell the target pilot where the lasers passed based on glow and audio cues

- sizzling shields does cosmetic burning and attrition damage and weakens laser bolts after passing through a shield (to prevent Fusion bolt effect which would be OP)

 

Vulcan

- make it even faster and do a bit more damage

- for balance reasons you could have slightly less accuracy at long range, though vulcan upgrades obviously hone the accuracy and speed

- vulcan rounds do not "sizzle" shields but they do provide key audio cues to make players move away from the rounds

- have an upgrade that explodes the rounds on impact (i.e.; gauss)

 

Shotgun

- extend or specify the "super damage" cone

- gotta make it bounce - have the flak bounce around corners to give it another function, though bounced rounds do less damage than point blank

- shotgun flak does not "sizzle" shields

- but the audio cues would be overwhelming enough that it causes audio confusion against the enemy, another use for the shotgun: overwhelm

 

Plasma

- plasma hurts ship hitboxes very liberally, doesn't stick to "shape of ship", detects ship "aura" and sizzle passes are effective

- this is first major weapon in game (besides the spread of quad level 4 lasers trying to make up for laser's well balanced weakness of specific hitboxing) so its benefit is that it does something intense to ships.

- ships hear plasma zinging by, doing more than attrition damage, maybe "impacting" around ship effectively like a direct hit though maybe only 50-75% of the damage of a direct hit.

- plasma moves faster and glows bigger and hotter

- there should be some kind of plasma glow effect on the blobs that does not conform to the spherical design - some kind of shine or star aura making the blobs look dangerous and hot

 

Fusion

- Fusion completely ignores conservative hitboxes. Everyone's hitboxes are round spheres where Fusion bolts are concerned

- This is the ultimate weapon. You do not want people to have this weapon. You want to destroy the ship with it and take it from them.

- Fusion could have a slight trailing effect

- Fusion could "flash" shields around ships/bots it passes through, causing the bots to glow hot white before fading to red and back to their neutral color, something really showing heavy damage

- Being hit by fusion should feel damaging, heavy -- not only do your shields flash and you hear electronic damage effects but perhaps at the right angle and you are in a still position it even pushes you a little as it pushes through you.

 

---

 

All these should be given a chance to see how players like it and implemented at the same time.

 

All of this will make weapons less "samey" and also improve on the concept of hitbox importance, since hitbox importance becomes specific to lower weapons and goes away at higher weapons in a curve.

 

This makes higher weapons feel better.

 

This gives quad lasers and higher lasers more noticeable impact as you upgrade.

 

This makes the game far more interactive and immersive.

 

This makes interactivity with weapons (the most frickin important aspect of the whole game until other functions like building blocks and mining actually have the power of combat, which they presently don't) much much better.

 

You could even improve the "radar" screen by having an in-game toggle (or maybe impact-triggered toggle) that helps players understand where they are being hit or sizzled.

 

radar_indic.gif

 

Give it a try!

 

Since you're changing the rules of Descent by making non-round hitboxes, improve the rules, emphasize the rules and play with them. If nothing else, for fun! Otherwise, players are just guessing, getting frustrated and not learning much. I would imagine.


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#6
Whiteshark

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The shields would be a pretty weird addition. Just add vertical area to lasers, that's the most important part we're missing. There's also the movement tweaking option (slow down ships. Making acceleration slower won't make a big difference before it becomes annoying.) 


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Wouldn't it be easier to read if this was on Comic Sans?

 


#7
Wingman

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We are not building a 1v1 game - it is meant to be team based with roles to play.

This is exactly why we want to do Classic mode at a later date.

 

If you want to do 1v1 now, I would suggest that both parties agree to fly a panzer for now.

 

WM


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#8
DarkwingDiva

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[dev]

We are not building a 1v1 game - it is meant to be team based with roles to play.

This is exactly why we want to do Classic mode at a later date.

 

If you want to do 1v1 now, I would suggest that both parties agree to fly a panzer for now.

 

WM

[/dev]

 

An expected response. Let's look at the individual issues again:

 

 

1) Even with slower speed lasers are still the hands down best weapon in the game. I can only imagine this will be exacerbated by the introduction of lvl 6 lasers.

 

And the rest of these points I've brought up a dozen times, but the laser changes don't make the remaining weapons more viable in a multiplayer game.

 

2) Plasma is pointless in its current iteration, lasers beat them in every situation.

3) Vulcan is still only good for picking off low health players, maybe this will improve with vulcan 2/3s?.

4) Frag cannon is useless against anyone who can fly backwards.

5) Smart blobs still have screwey homing and are useless for probing out player locations in a room because of it.

6) Energy usage is way too high/ships are too hard to hit/have too much health/weapons do too little damage. All of this combined makes the game frustrating to play. I don't think inspades and I finished a single dogfight without running out of energy tonight. This caused constant breaks in action and slowed the game down to a crawl while we recharged and flew around trying to find each other again. 

 

Also I don't know if this is a bug specific to me, but I don't hear a missile lock on beep. I see the flashing sign, I can hear all other sound effects in the game, but nothing for the lock on tone.

 

1-2. Lasers are better than other weapons. They do a good deal of damage and use less energy than the Plasma. That's without introducing higher levels of lasers on the Typhoon. The plasma is simply not a good choice for weapon. I only use it for nostalgia. How will team based gameplay with ship roles make the Plasma more viable?

 

3. Vulcans are only viable when you want to save energy or run out of energy. Half the time, it's not even worth switching to in order to finish off players since a couple hits with lasers would anyway and the Vulcan isn't that much faster than the laser, albeit there is a bigger difference now. Vulcans don't travel as fast as they should, and they just don't do a lot of damage. How will team based gameplay with ship roles make the vulcan more viable?

 

4. I agree the frag cannon is useless right now. Use lasers, or if you're out of energy use vulcan. If you're trying to save energy use vulcan. Any other weapon use is just to play with it. Half the ships fly fast enough to negate the use of the frag. I can see the use of the frag in single player, but not in multiplayer. How will team based gameplay with ship roles give the frag a use outside of single player?

 

5.  I haven't had much experience with the smart missile blobs, but if their homing is awkward, how will team based gameplay with ship roles make it less awkward?

 

6. Energy usage is pretty high. Ships can be a tad easier to hit now then say a few months ago, but still can be tricky outside of individual tunnels (i.e. open areas).  Ships can be pretty tanky and usually find health before you can finish them off in one engagement. Sure, you can add multiple ships to make it less likely you survive the engagement, but is that really team based strategy going there? Imo, no, it's complete randomness. The more ships you add in the same space, the more things flying through the air. As long as the space doesn't change, you fill up the volume with more weapons fire the more ships you add, but then any damage you take is mostly random. Each team pretty much just aims in the general direction and spam fire until people die or leave the room. This kind of high speed, random gameplay is not something I'm a fan of. I want to deliberately aim at and have a good chance of taking someone down without both having to disengage to get energy. Adding teammates should make it MORE deliberate, not more random. So how does this teambased gameplay with ship roles prevent this more random gameplay and make it more deliberate?  

 

 

All of this is my own opinion based on my own experience/perception with/of the game.


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#9
LotharBot

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I can't think of any team/role-based FPS games where it's common for combat classes fighting each other 1v1 to have to leave for ammo.  1v1 fights happen a fair bit, either for just a couple seconds as the "tip of the spear" or as extended fights protecting a back pathway or something, but they're not usually so long that people have to leave for ammo.

 

It's common for one class to be strong against another class, maybe being favored about 2 to 1 in a given engagement, and for support to turn the odds considerably (either flipping them to like 1:2 or increasing them to like 10:1).  And it's common for support classes to be in big trouble against combat classes unless they're entrenched.  And it's common for a class that's normally weaker to be able to win by setting up an ambush, getting the drop, etc. or just by executing really well.  But it's really strange to see a pair of combat-oriented classes run out of ammo before either one of them runs out of hitpoints.

 

Right now this game is really, really far away from what I expect combat-wise, not just from Descent 1v1 or D3 team-based modes like CTF, but from what I expect from the TF2/CS/Overwatch/Halo type games.


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#10
Whiteshark

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Honestly think the problem is anyone who isn't an experienced pilot can be hit quite easily regardless of lacking ship size. It's once you and your enemy learn to handle your space and move in unpredictable manner that the gameplay becomes frustrating. When me or anyone else is having fun in this game is when the skill level is sufficiently low, something that cannot remain in any kind of fps game. 


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Wouldn't it be easier to read if this was on Comic Sans?

 


#11
inspades

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#12
inspades

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1) The lasers still seem like the go-to weapon. Even with the slowing down, it still has great damage potential out to medium range, or even long range if you can read the opponent well enough. It is a step in the right direction and it feels better than before though.

 

2) Quite true for anything outside of close range or spamming a corridor. At close range, the plasma ball speed is negligible and is on par with quad4s damage-wise. Also, plasma is harder to weave through compared to lasers, situational as those are

 

3) Mostly agree. Its better at doing chip-damage at range than lasers in this iteration. Still feel like the firing rate should be doubled, the damage halved, and bullets sped up to improve weapon-feel and emphasizing it's strength at range

 

4) On the fence with the frag cannon. It's still the case that it's only good for close-range (especially surprise attacks), but a typhoon can do over 500 damage in the space of a second. If you use it like a TF2 Spy's knife, it becomes a whole lot nastier. However, I'm not sure it's the original intent of this weapon

 

5) The homing is a bit hit-and-miss. When it locks, it really locks. I largely use it as an ambush, trap, or dissuading a pursuer, but not so much for recon. Probably because of how scarce smarts seem to be. I'd rather get the damage potential.

 

6) There were definitely moments when we were both holding down the trigger at each other and were able to dodge most of the fire. While it was fun for me in a way, I'm not sure this is what was intended.

 

 

I'll also add, the fusion seems even weaker than before. Since I last checked, you could charge the fusion for a half second to get 40 damage out of each blob. As of this build, you have to charge it from an entire three seconds to get that same damage. Now, you can almost out damage the fusion with the Auger's mining laser (30 DPS). Fusion is dying for a buff


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#13
Whiteshark

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I was just watching that video. Really cool you recorded it.

 

I see you play so far from each other, that the ships become hardly visible, like pixel thin. The big fov isn't helping at all with trying to see distances, but I think you use vauss way too far away to be effective with it, It's great it doesn't double the range of lasers. The smart missiles seemed to home ok, and even work ok in some scenarios. I notice it provides pretty easy kills vs. lesser players. Of course in the open where you most fight it looks like the space is way too big for them to hit. Actually, it even seems that you could kill each other pretty easily if you just went closer to each other. Wingman is right in that you are doing a very careful 1v1 gameplay there.

 

What we are probably looking differently is that while you think the movement is perfect and everything else sucks, I see that the ship size is what it is, map size is what it is too, which is larger than in D1 because of the smaller ships and weapons as well as fov differences, and it's stuff like the movement which have to be tweaked.

 

Also, I'm glad frag is as uselss as it is in head to head dogfights. It's like a bad troll weapon used to kill targets from sides or behind, and as a shotgun shall remain like that.


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Wouldn't it be easier to read if this was on Comic Sans?

 


#14
Vainiac

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Good games last night inspades. That 2nd kill with the smart was beautiful, had no idea where it came from when I died. Also gotta say you have one of the best vulcan's that I've seen so far.

 

Wingman, we weren't actively trying to do 1v1, its just that the player base is so small that its hard to get even 2-3 people in a game. I understand that you don't want to balance solely around 1v1, however, you can't disregard the 1v1 experience because it's informative for how bigger games and other game modes play out. Even in big teams games you're trying to promote (team anarchy, miner mayhem, corporate war) almost all interactions are based around the combat. You want to get the miner to the base? Or mine/transport ore? Well I'm going to stop you by shooting at you. And you're going to try and stop me by shooting back or having a teammate shoot at me. The vast majority of the time this plays out on very small scales of 1v1 or 2v1. These small 1v1 type interactions cumulatively add up over a game to swing the tides in one direction or another for a team. We see examples of this in other class based shooters as well. In TF2 a scout will jump in to take out an out of position medic, or a demoman going against an engineer defending a lvl 3 turret. 

 

In my opinion and others based on these responses, the combat at the very base for these small interactions is not in a good place in D:U.  The weapons that are available to you to fight are what I'd describe as very low efficiency, and this makes it very difficult to get kills against competent players. Even if I'm caught totally blindsided, the primary weapons in D:U do so little damage relative to ship health that chances are I'm going to be able to escape. And once I escape the ships are so hard to hit that the other guy will probably run out of ammo before finishing me off despite having a blatant advantage. It'd be the equivalent of that scout trying to jump in on that medic in TF2 and running out of ammo every time before killing him, or doing so little damage that the medic will almost always get back to safety.

 

Darkwing brings up good points that just having other ships in the game with you is not going make these problems go away. Yes you'll be able to get some more kills by blindsiding some low health players, but if two players actually see each other want to fight, they often can't do enough damage in a short enough time to finish each other off before running out of ammo or someone else comes along and cheapshots them both with the mega.

 

To whiteshark's point about ships seeming small for the distance that fights were occurring, I agree with him. The distance that fights are going to take place is largely dictated by the necessary distance to react to oncoming fire. Currently in D:U this feels to me it has to happen at a range where the ships look tiny, further exacerbating the difficulty in doing damage. I know that actual hitboxes are bigger than the ship models, but when the ship model sizes make it difficult to keep track of your opponent it makes the fight more frustrating. I've felt like this has been a problem since I first started playing a year and a half ago. Everything feels small, ships, weapon fire, weapon pickups, turrets, formerly mines (although the new model is way better). This in turn makes the levels feel huge.

 

Whiteshark: I'd definitely be up for some more games with you. I'm really only gaming around my newborn's schedule at the moment though so it makes it really sporadic (practically nonexistant). If I see you on though I'll definitely message you for a game or two. 


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#15
defcon_x

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I understand that you don't want to balance solely around 1v1, however, you can't disregard the 1v1 experience because it's informative for how bigger games and other game modes play out. Even in big teams games you're trying to promote (team anarchy, miner mayhem, corporate war) almost all interactions are based around the combat. You want to get the miner to the base? Or mine/transport ore? Well I'm going to stop you by shooting at you. And you're going to try and stop me by shooting back or having a teammate shoot at me. The vast majority of the time this plays out on very small scales of 1v1 or 2v1. These small 1v1 type interactions cumulatively add up over a game to swing the tides in one direction or another for a team.

 

Yeah, that is a really good point.

 

Also, I agree that energy seems to run out really fast.

 

I would like to be able to use ship abilities and weapons longer before breaking off.


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#16
Jobode

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...

What we are probably looking differently is that while you think the movement is perfect and everything else sucks, I see that the ship size is what it is, map size is what it is too, which is larger than in D1 because of the smaller ships and weapons as well as fov differences, and it's stuff like the movement which have to be tweaked.

 

The map size / proportions, and the open space is a good point, Whiteshark.

I would be interested in knowing if most of the critics are also valid for Valor or Mobius?
I think there are less problems in a 1vs1,like running out of energy, or not hitting your enemy.
If one compares to DU one should play similar Levels. Rama is very large and open space. Is D1 not played in way smaller / more narrow Levels?
 


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#17
DarkwingDiva

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The map size / proportions, and the open space is a good point, Whiteshark.

I would be interested in knowing if most of the critics are also valid for Valor or Mobius?
I think there are less problems in a 1vs1,like running out of energy, or not hitting your enemy.
If one compares to DU one should play similar Levels. Rama is very large and open space. Is D1 not played in way smaller / more narrow Levels?
 

 

For me, the problems are still there on Valor and Mobius, it's just not as pronounced. Everything in the level seems a tad oversized, even the outside tunnels in valor. Having a smaller FOV doesn't really help either. It kinda seems like you can get closer to the walls then you might expect. Unless your quite literally right up on someone, even in single tunnels, it's pretty easy to dodge most fire. Mobius has so many turns it's just too easy to turn out of fire. The best shot you have is in the larger rooms, but then you can't hit each other consistently and have to run to get more ammo/energy. D1/D2 kinda offset this a little by making the ships easy to distinguish from the background (in most cases) and have the hitboxes nice and big, as well as the weapons balanced with each other. Unless D:U does the same, it should stop looking at D1/D2 for numbers and start changing the basic flight model/weapon mechanics/scaling (among other things). Having a base to work off of is understandable, but if it start interfering with fun and makes combat random/boring/frustrating at times, then it needs to be changed imo.

 

(not sure I communicated this well, but I hope you understand what I'm getting at)


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#18
defcon_x

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I think part of the getting close to walls thing has to do with the cameras mounted on the front ends of ships, which would lead to the ability to shove that camera against the wall.

 

However, this might not be totally true because if you slide into walls it seems you can slide "into" them further than one would expect.

 

Collision model maybe?

 

But yea, proportions may be a little different.


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#19
Bratwurst

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i agree in that point with jobode, in smaller or more narrow maps i have way less problems to hit someone or get out of energy.

 

Nevertheless I agree with DarkwingDiva there is a problem with the  proportions. Ships appear to small the hitboxes are definetely to small.

It should still be possible to doge enemy fire and why should it not easy be possible to turn out of fire?

 

Concerning the weapons Vaniac is right the weapons are not balanced at all. I always find myself just using Lasers.

(Fusion is way to weak, Plasma should fire more damaging balls (speed seems to be fine))

Everthing else about weapons is said several times by many Players...

 

Generally i see one big problem:

there are some 6DOF-"Celebreties" test the game on a regular basis.

I can not understand that the Defs do not really react to suggestions of the "Pro´s" and adjust the playing mechanics.

It´s always said "Spread the word" but if it´s not possible to convince the Pro´s or the experienced 6DOF-Gamers it will became difficult for the game.

 

It seems there are still way more active players in D1 & D2 than in DU. If it is possible to get them to play D:U that would be the best publicity ever.

As long as there is no really 1vs1 working, the rest of the game will not work either...
Maybe DU-Studios should invite 1 or 2  experienced players for one week and test everything with them.

Wasn't that done by another Studio? (*hust hust*)

 

Don't get me wrong, i really wish D:U big success but for the moment there is a lot to do...


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#20
PuDLeZ

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I personally feel like it's still a problem in the smaller maps depending on how many players and who they are (their experience/skills)… I also don't feel like the energy centers are in the right spots for how fast energy is used. For example, Valor, it's basically just the one corner of the map. If you control that area, you can prevent them from charging... Colosseum:  just stay in the middle of the big room and get people before they go in or out of the energy center.  Rama feels right since one can't control the back room and down under in the main room at the same time.
 
 
My opinions on primary/secondary/gadget in their current state.
 
Primary
  • Lasers: Goto primary. I think their speed feels right now but the damage doesn’t feel right, especially compared to other primaries.
  • Vulcan: Feels a bit slow. As previously stated, it's really only good to pick off someone off that's sparking and when you run out of energy.
  • Frag: Good for an ambush or run into their face/ship otherwise useless
  • Plasma: Good for when you don't have quad 4s and only for certain situations.
  • Fusion: Rarely ever use it unless it's survival and the bots are coming through the same door. Even then it feels like it takes too long to charge and requires too many hits to get a kill (excluding the predator).
 
Secondary
Note: the bug where you fire against a wall and you do friendly fire is really annoying...
 
  • Concussion: Feels right.
  • Homers: Feels right, especially their homing ability.
  • Smarts: If they're not the cheap knock off brand that fail on impact, they ok... I still don't get the feeler feeling (probing as Vainiac called it). I really only fire them when I know where someone is (following me, force them to move). Also, I'm still not a fan of how they track once they're locked on. The mega is easier to dodge in tight spaces and that (to me) is just not right.
  • Mega: Feels right but don’t fire it too often.
 
Gadgets:
  • Proximity mines: Wish they were a little bit bigger but I can deal with it. The powerups should be a 4pack instead of a single one.
  • Laser grids: They’re good. Only exception would what was discussed in the hangovers. If a missile directly hits it, it should not block the splash/blast. Now if a missile hits the wall and not the grid, the splash should only take out the grid and a player hiding behind it.
  • Turrets: Wish they were a bit easier to see. Besides that, I have mixed feelings about them… Powerups appear even when there’s only non-compatible ships playing. You can also spawn in a wasp, drop a turret, kill yourself/get killed, and then switch to a different ship while keeping that deployed turret. Not sure the best action to do with this, it might make the turret explode when they change to a different ship or allow all ships be able to pick them up. I also feel like if we’re preventing other ships from picking them up and deploying the powerups, the same should be done with the other gadgets such as grids for the ships that don’t spawn with them…
  • Triple Ds: Need to give them more love before I can truly comment. Unlike the other gadgets, not sure why they don’t have a pickup…

  • 2

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